Thank you for joining us today on the Sun Leaders Podcast. I’m your host Ryan Bankston, the CIO Legal we specialize in technology management for solo practicing and small practice law firms. Today I’m joined by Colin Levy.

Colin is a prominent figure in the legal tech world, known for his insightful blog articles, books and active presence on LinkedIn. Colin’s author of the Legal Tech Innovation Advancement and the Future of Law Practice. This is a book I owned and have turned to several times over the past year in the context of running a solo legal tech practice.

It covers different types of legal technology, popular myths, innovation and adoption challenges, strategies for success and improvement and it showcases contributions from more than 50 well known legal technology thought leaders Colin knows well through his work and online presence. Colin’s also the co author of CLM for Dummies and for my ALA listeners, this CLM is not your certification track, but rather stands for Contract Life Cycle Management, a topic where Colin is an undisputed authority,
having spent much of his career focused on contracts and is demonstrated by his position as the Director of Legal at Malbec, a prestigious legal tech company that specializes in contract management systems and also a good wine. Colin, I am so glad you’re here.

Thank you for joining me. Thanks so much for having me. Really, really looking forward to this conversation.

Absolutely. And sorry I said your last name wrong. I worked with some attorneys with the last name Levy and tend to say that Colin’s last name is actually Levy.

So quick correction and sorry about that. Colin, I am curious why you chose the in house council path. An interesting question.

I well kind of goes back to an experience I had prior to law school. I worked for a year for a big law firm in New York City as a paralegal because I wanted to get some work experience before I began law school, but also want to better understand the big law world. And it was through that experience that further reinforced my view or my desire not work for a big law firm.

Mainly because I just wasn’t really into the idea of recording time, tracking my hours and fighting over time sheets. And in addition, at least at the time, even though I was working as a paralegal, I was working really long hours. I didn’t have any real control over my schedule.

Uh, and I wanted to have more control. Uh, and quite frankly, you know, from a more professional perspective, I also wanted to be in a position where I could better see the impact I was having as a lawyer. And so working in house really allowed for me to achieve that while also really getting to know the business quite well.

And it was that that also found compelling to work in house. That’s like, that’s very interesting. I’m not an attorney myself so I don’t have the experience of law school.

And my experience working in big firms has always been from the staff side. But I want to make sure my understanding is correct. So in house counsel that’s going to typically be like a salaried Monday to Friday 40 hour a week job in the ideal space of course, but as opposed to like 60 hours when you don’t know if you’re actually billing all of those hours or getting paid for the ones you bill, et cetera.

It seems like a much less stressful career choice like career path. I would say that it can be the hours aren’t typically are less than for big law, but depending on the company and where you work aren’t necessarily always that always the case. But what is tends to be the case is yes, your salaried so there isn’t any, any billboard hour requirement that you have to meet.

So that sorts of stress doesn’t exist. And in general I found it to be a rewarding career path and one that is not stress inducing by and large. But also I think given the stage of my career, it also is less stressful than it was when I first started working as a lawyer.

When I realized after graduating that I didn’t exactly know what I was doing despite the fact that I had graduated from law school and passed the bar. Yeah, awesome, awesome. I’m interested how social media has influenced your professional journey.

Yeah, you know, it’s an interesting, interesting question because I, I’m not, you know, some people call me an influencer. I tend to push back against that description because I’m not one of those types that you know, is on socials and constantly, you know, promoting or hawking one product or another. So I’m not really an influencer in that sense.

But I more use social media to help I guess sell ideas and concepts around legal tech, around how to use tech, around how to understand it, around how to overcome your fear of technology. And I think I was drawn to social media to do that because I had initially used a variety of platforms including LinkedIn to kind of find my way in legal tech once I started wanting to learn more about it. And by that I mean reaching out to folks who were either teaching about legal tech or creating products or
trying to create products or who had already done so and want to engage with these people to try to understand their reasons for Doing so, their journeys, what they had learned.

And then as I started growing more well versed in the space, I wanted to share some of my own thoughts and comments on it. And I think it’s just through that that social media became this important method for me to connect with others. But I don’t really view it as sort of, again, as some way of trying to hawk something or sell something or influence something.

It’s more a matter of me just trying to support the community. And I find the community is fairly active online, and so that’s where I go to support them. When did you make the decision to start your own blog and posting articles there? Well, I’ve always enjoyed writing.

Writing for me has always been therapeutic. It’s always been something that I found very relaxing and a way of just getting thoughts in my own head. So I started writing articles mainly as a way of both kind of helping to unwind and relax, but also sharing some of the thoughts and lessons I’ve learned through these conversations I had with others.

Because I initially had started just sharing interviews, and then it turned into writing sort of more longer thought pieces and having others contribute pieces as well. And so I, I find that it’s a good way to explore ideas and concepts and, and help show others what there is to learn through, you know, a way that I, I find beneficial for myself as well as hopefully for others. Yeah, absolutely.

Well, I know I’ve gotten a lot out of the legal tech ecosystem. So is it true that the legal tech ecosystem kind of grew out of your blog? Is it like a collection of articles from the blog or is it more of a collection of people from the blog that got together to write the book? So initially it started, the idea behind the book initially was provide this high level kind of introduction to worldly old tech through some of the stories that I had gleaned from interviews I had done of other folks. And
so it started out as kind of a collection of some of the bits and pieces of those interviews.

And then I realized that there was more that needed to be included or I wanted to include. So it became more than just that. But certainly, you know, the bread and butter of the book really is snippets of conversations I’ve had with others who have done really some cool things in the space.

Because I found personally that one of the best ways to learn is through hearing the stories of others who have done things in the space. And so that really is kind of what underlies the book in many ways. Got it.

You know, I found it Very helpful understanding kind of how legal technology and legal Ops works together, how those different. How those disciplines are different and the same. You know, often I kind of see them used online or see professionals identifying one way or the other or both.

You know, when I originally grabbed the book just based off the system Legal tech ecosystem, I thought it was going to tell me more about what conferences to go to, what groups to join, you know, like the community of people that are in legal technology. But it seems it’s more about how that technology and processes and people work together. Right, Yeah.

I mean, you know, if you’re looking for kind of a list of conferences to go to or other subs, events to go to or people to follow, I have resources I can suggest for that. But really the book is meant to be essentially a sort of. A sort of introduction to this, to the space.

And it touches upon various elements that make up the space space. And I called it the legal Tech ecosystem because I view legal tech really as an ecosystem of not just technology, but of people, of processes and businesses and technology all working together, but also influencing one another and being dependent upon one another. And I want people to get a sense of the forest as well as the trees that make up the forest, if you will.

And so that’s really kind of the main theme of the book because I’m very much a believer in this sort of concept of interconnectedness and I very much see that play out in a variety of ways within legal tech. Yeah, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah.

The book is great and that topic is incredible. I’ll definitely come back to what you brought up about the conferences. I think that our audience could take some notes there.

But yeah, I mean, the ecosystem of legal technology, I just think about it through my experience working in the staff side of large MLAW firms and from service providers. It’s interesting to see where that is absolutely true. All of the technology and people working together.

It’s also interesting to see where it’s very much not true. Like the technology that lives in the silo of one practice group or one office and the rest of the firm doesn’t really touch it because, well, they’re in a different practice group, so they have no reason to. Or even if it’s just because of the different attorneys that maybe came from another firm that merged a couple of years ago or what have you, and their technology comes with them.

So. And that’s a huge challenge in big firms. Like how do you get the firm to work together when these different silos exist.

Where are those silos appropriate and a strength to your business? And where is it, you know, actually eating into everybody’s productivity or the quality of what the clients get into the day? I wanted to ask you, you know, your career has been focused on contracts and contract management. I was hoping that maybe you could share a story or about some of the biggest challenges that you faced in contract management over your career. Yeah, plenty of them.

I think one story that I could share comes from sort of very start in my career when I was working for a global manufacturing company and was part of a small team that was trying to put in place a relatively rudimentary sort of document management contract review solution that we’re developing in house. And it was intended to help initially at least with non disclosure agreements, because we just were dealing with a lot of them. And they were particularly tricky in some cases because we were
dealing with companies that were either providing specific parts or manufacturing specific things for us in specific ways.

And given the competitiveness of the industry is really important for those NDAs to be very protective of our intellectual property. And so we were trying to help ourselves be better service providers by developing the solution to help with those NDAs. However, what we realized through kind of jumping full on board with development was we’d skipped a really important part of the process, which was getting together user requirements, because we were thinking just kind of about ourselves since we
were reviewing NDAs.

But we didn’t think so much about those people who are sending us these documents to review and what they were seeing and what they wanted to be interacting with. Because we were trying to automate and help make things faster. But not just for ourselves, but also for our salespeople.

And as a result of us of kind of overlooking that initial step, we then realized that the solution we were building was one that for us made a lot of sense, but really wasn’t making as much sense for others. And so it wasn’t likely going to be used as well for others. And because of that, it kind of ended up being not all that successful.

And that was fine. We learned a lot about ourselves and about the process, but it really was a key lesson I learned earlier in my career. And I was glad to have learned it because it’s something now that I talk about a lot, which is that before looking at potential solutions, you need to really understand your problem.

And your problem encompasses more than just kind of the bottleneck itself, but those who are contributing to the problem or experiencing the problem. And you really got to understand that first before you move ahead to any other step, including importantly developing or looking at solutions. What is, what is a tool that you use when you’re in that situation where you’re trying to understand the problem or you’re helping a team understand the problem and they’re struggling? That’s a, It’s a good
question.

You know, there’s no real, I wouldn’t say there’s any real tool aside from frankly just being an active listener, meaning reaching out to people and really listening to what they have to say and taking full stops of what they share and not kind of anticipating what they’re going to say and then respond it, but more just really listening and taking it all in and then seeing what you’re left with after you’ve done that. So I really think that the key first step in understanding problem is to kind of
go on a listen tour of those who are experiencing this problem and how they describe it and how it’s impacting them. And that helps you better understand both the problem as well as the perspectives on the problem from those who are experiencing it.

Yeah, absolutely. That makes a lot of sense. You talk about something in the book.

Actually, I think that applies here and is very helpful and that’s the use of Six Sigma, which, for those that don’t know, Six sigma, lean six Sigma, these are kind of disciplines for process improvement. But one section of it is on problem statements and how you can drill down a problem statement into something that is measurable, something you can test against, et cetera, something that’s statistically sound. There’s a lot that goes into it and I think that could apply here.

I was interested since you brought six Sigma up a couple of times in the book. Is that something that you’re familiar with? Did it just come from a couple of folks you interviewed? So a bit of a bit of both. That came from something that came up during a bunch of interviews that I conducted, but also something that I have myself been interested in because I’m very much someone who is process oriented and interested in how processes work or don’t work and how they can fall apart and sort of problem
identification and being able to test against something specific is really important because not only am I process oriented, I’m also data driven.

And so in order for me to best help someone or best understand a problem, I need to have the data to understand what it is. And that, you know, ties into six sigma, lean six sigma in terms of, you know, figuring out what the problem is, being able to test against what it is, because the way to learn, the way to improve, the way to come upon a solution is to test different ways of solving and see whether it’s solved or not. So that’s super important.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. That’s a great story. I’ve definitely experienced when mapping out processes and trying to come up with a solution that there’s definitely parts of a process, a process being like several different pieces kind of connected together.

You got inputs on one end, outputs on the other. But some of those pieces in the middle, the cogs, as they were, are interchangeable with other processes that may be accomplishing completely different things for the business. And if I’ve seen where, when that’s not taken into consideration, those cogs become part of that automation.

And so that interchangeability is. You know, when you were talking, I was just thinking about something simple as like redlining, right. Like a firm that, you know, there’s lots of reasons why something may be redlined.

Not just contract, you know, life cycle management when you’re redlining contracts, but, you know, any pleadings or, you know, memos or briefs or what have you, there’s red lines all over the place. So like trying to build some type of redlining process into the contract lifecycle management tool that’s separate from how anybody else in the firm may redline the document. I could see where that would be.

It could be like, when you look at it, it’s like an efficiency because you save time in the clicks to get the redline document. But since it’s a different redlining tool or process than what the rest of the firm uses, it’s almost a waste or muda. Right.

So that I can see from my own experience kind of that same thing has happened. I think that’s a common trap that, that folks can fall into when they’re, when they’re doing this, when they’re automating processes. Right.

Would you agree? Yeah, absolutely. There, there are a lot of different traps people can fall into. And something I talk about in the book and something that you kind of allude to a little bit is just sort of the shiny key syndrome of thinking that, you know, technology, just because it exists means that it’s going to be the answer, which is not really always the case, if at all, which goes back to the problem identification step, which is so critical.

But in addition, you know, there’s a variety of different ways of solving a problem potentially using technology. Which is why it’s important to get to understand those who are going to be part of using any potential solution and have them be a part of evaluating potential solutions. Because in my world of contract life skill management, but also in a lot of other worlds with legal tech, it’s really important for the tech to be used and the only way to and one of the best ways to ensure this can
be used is making users be a part of the process from day one.

Because otherwise what will happen sometimes is the decision maker purchaser will buy a piece of tech, think it’s great, but then no one uses it because no one’s a part of it and they’re just perfectly happy to use whatever tool they’re currently using, if any, and don’t really want to change because they have no ownership in the change itself. Yeah, absolutely. Well said.

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I think DevOps has a lot to say about that. Yeah, I love stories. I’d love to hear a win.

Can you share a story of how you’ve seen technology improve a firm’s operations? Yeah, I keep saying firms because I so often am talking about law firms. But of course with you being in house counsel, I suppose I should say a firm or legal department. Yeah, well, I mean, you know, we.

I can’t specifically name the company, but what I can speak to is the fact that we have worked with a really large company in sort of the health space, if you will, and they’ve got a lot of complicated processes and a lot of not just complicated processes, but complicated documents as well. And so in working with them, not only have us working with them been able to help and allow them to automate the management of a lot of these processes and documents, but also quite frankly they contribute to
the development of new functionality that we now offer to other customers in our solution. And so that’s really the beauty, I think in many ways of how I and Also, how Mallbeth works is we really, you know, I and them are really keen on developing collaborations with others to not just help them solve problems, but help them collaborate and develop new tools to solve future problems.

So not just being reactive to existing problems, but being proactive as well to prevent future problems from arising. And that’s been an ongoing sort of theme, I’d say, in terms of my work with Malbec, but also in terms of tech that I see as being successful as tech that doesn’t just solve a problem, but also helps contribute to future tools that can prevent other problems from occurring down the line. Because I think in this age where tech is so much a part of our lives and the world is so
dynamic and so fluid, we need to be able to be proactive.

And we can’t just operate in a reactive mode, which traditionally has been how lawyers have operated in terms of client comes to us with a problem, we help with the problem and move on. That’s not really what’s going to work the majority of time these days. We have to be proactive.

The clients are wanting people to be proactive as much as they want them to be reactive. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

That resonates with me. It’s like essential in customer experience and many other disciplines that the measure of reactive versus proactive, it’s like a benchmark for maturity. And just that statement alone doesn’t do justice to a lot of businesses.

Reactive in its nature, it’s just transactional and reactive. And we understand that. But the kind of overall strategy of a business.

Right. And moving into that proactive approach is, I think, a great measure of maturity. Yeah, absolutely.

And it’s hard. Look, I get it many times it’s easier to be reactive all the time. And certainly I have been earlier in my life more reactive than proactive.

But being proactive allows you to not have to be as reactive down the line because you’re preventing problems from arising that you have to react to. And that way you’re helping yourself and others as well. And it goes to, I think, another key theme that I mentioned in the book, but also, frankly, just believe in myself personally as well as professionally, which is just being someone who’s open to change and open to adapting and being open to always learning new things and not being content to
kind of just be happy with what exists now and what you know now and seeking to grow.

Because I think we all. It’s incumbent upon all of us to be dynamic, to meet the needs of the world today, but also to live frankly in the world or today? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, Colin, you’ve got a great network on LinkedIn, lots of thought leaders and very impressive and well educated and creative people.

So you’re exposed to a lot of different tech startups, a lot of different solutions and things in the market. You know, we’re recording this in December, the end of the year is coming up. So I thought it would be fun to hear what innovations have excited you the most over the past year.

That’s a, you know, it’s a good question. I, I think certainly generative artificial intelligence is, continues to be an exciting one. Continues to be, I think, really fun to play with or play around with.

But I think what I am most excited about and something that we’re just starting to explore is generative AI solutions that are multimodal, meaning that they’re not just providing text or imagery or audio, but ones that can do all those things at the same time. Ones that can provide you with, you know, an audio, you know, a video or something, or a podcast episode even, or something else. I think we’re going to see more of that going forward with generative AI and it’s going to be increasingly
powerful and able to do more rather than just provide sort of text based response.

So that’s certainly one thing that I’m excited about and that’s been exciting to me this year. I think another thing that’s been exciting to me over the course of this year has been just the growth I’ve seen of the legal tech space, both in terms of tools, but also in terms of people. I’m always eager to grow and support the community and it’s been exciting for me to see more and more people wanting to learn about it, wanting to connect with me and others about it and wanting to, you know, be a
part of this.

Because I see it as more than just sort of like me, but also sometimes also frankly a movement of people that are trying to make the legal industry better suited to the needs of today and tomorrow rather than the needs of yesterday. So that’s another exciting thing and I expect I’ll see, see that as a theme through 2025 as well, as much as generative AI will likely continue to dominate the headline. So those two things for me are probably really exciting and I’m sure there will be other exciting
things happening next year that I am not expecting to see and that’s going to be fun.

Awesome. Generative AI is certainly high, but it’s a little scary too, right? I mean, I see on LinkedIn well, one in particular, one judge in particular comes up in my mind that often talks about the dangers of generative AI when it comes to evaluating evidence in court. Yeah, I mean, look, generative AI is not the answer to everything and is imperfect.

But that’s been the case for any type of technology. Humans are imperfect, so we can’t expect a knowledge created by humans to be, to be perfect. So, you know, we’ll see.

But there’s certainly, I think a lot, lots to be excited about, but also a lot to learn about and a lot to kind of be, be cautious when using as well. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. What are your predictions for 2025? Oh, I hate giving predictions because I feel like I’m.

It’s some question that comes up every year at this time and it’s always difficult. I think what I can say is an easy to make prediction is we’re going to continue to see growth of generative AI. That’s an easy enough low hating fruit prediction.

Beyond that, I think that we will see greater scrutiny of technologies, particularly those that rely on generative AI because I think we’ve seen enough stories as it is to warrant that this year. So that certainly is something I think we’ll see going forward next year. And then lastly, I think we’re going to see a growing of the tension between figuring out what’s actually real and what’s been artificially created.

And I think that’s going to continue to be a tension we’re going to have to navigate. Particularly as I said earlier about generative AI being able to create video that looks like it’s real and looks like it involves real people. And that’s going to be something that I think of concern to a lot of people.

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. As far as the technology over the recent year that’s exciting and predictions for the future, some of the things that come up for me as far as exciting is the kind of more well funded or more successful developers out there that have acquired some of the smaller developers that have really nice tools and then how that changes how they go to market. Over the past year, especially earlier on, I was struck by a lot of these kind of more startup tools as far as how
expensive they could be or how hard it was to get involved when you’re a solo practitioner or a small firm.

But I’ve seen where as some of them have been acquired by other groups, their capabilities are becoming more accessible for solo practicing attorneys and that really excites me. I’ll give an example. Revill is well known in the ediscovery space.

And one of the neat things about their technology when it comes to ediscovery, you know, it’s, it’s kind of any ediscovery platform out there, it’s going to take evidence, a bunch of documents, take a bunch of images of these documents, it’s going to OCR these documents, index it, so you can search it and you can tag it, organize that way. But not many of them do that with audio files. But Revil will do it with audio files where when the audio files come in and it’s processing the files, it
transcribes them using AI, not generative AI, but AI create those transcriptions kind of in the same or very similar way as what kind of OCR does for a document.

And so now you’re, you’re searching those audio transcripts, creating tags and things off them too. But that, you know, that Reveal platform is not really a solo firm tool. It’s not really thought of as that way.

It’s more of the bigger firm’s tools. But Revil bought Logical, which is kind of more seen as a new discovery tool for the solo practitioners. For the small firms, it does not currently have the capability to do that with audio files, but I bet it’s a good bet to say that it will in the future.

Now that reveals bottom and that stuff excites me when I can see technology tried and tested and then the entry point, kind of like our entry price is brought down a little bit so that some of the smaller outfits can get access to it. And it’s my belief that that just closes the access to justice gap. Yeah, I think that’s one thing that gets overlooked a lot or not enough attention are technologies in Lille that are aimed at small legal departments or smaller or smaller firms that really can help
with a lot of sort of the time consuming work that takes away from their ability to grow and earn revenue.

Administrative work like intaking clients, reviewing documents or putting together a basic form or filling out a form, you know, these technologies exist and they, they’re very helpful. And I, you know, as much as I’m a big fan of kind of the larger technology solutions that exist, I think equally exciting are those that are aimed at sort of these smaller shops that do really great work and are very good at what they do and are impactful and as you mentioned, you know, helping to make accessing
legal support and resources less time consuming and costly. Yeah, absolutely.

I want to turn back to something that came up earlier when we were talking about the ecosystem and the conferences. And you said you have some resources there that would be fun to talk about for a minute. My involvement is as far as the circles I run in is ILTA and Ilta Khan or International Legal Technology Association.

That’s really where I find other legal tech folks or I have over the years before I became more active on LinkedIn. Following a great example ala for, you know, kind of the business side or staff side of law, your human resources directors, office managers, et cetera. CIO Legal’s a business partner there and then just recently sponsored the Florida Bars Solo and Small Firm section.

If any of you are coming to the EC meeting in February in Orlando, you’ll see me there. But these are the circles that I kind of run in for, you know, my access to my clients and legal tech gurus, as it were. What would you add to that list? And which ones do you, you know, which conferences do you go? I’m sure there’s some that are more for kind of legal departments and in house counsel.

Right? Yeah. So I think the ones that, you know, I tend to go to are, you know, Clock and Vegas. One I want to go to next year that I’ve heard good things about is running legal like a business.

Also focus on legal ops. ACC has some great events as well that are permanently debt in House counsel because it’s the association of Corporate Council. And Cleo always puts on a great event as well.

And actually next year it’s going to be in my hometown of Boston. So I hope to go because it’s going to be wonderful. Close to me.

So those are events that I would suggest people and they’re always, you know, there are a variety of styles of events too. Those are some of the bigger events, but they also are other ones that are more focused on more narrow constituencies. And so I think it’s more a matter of just kind of finding the right group for you where you feel the most connected and get the most out of.

Yeah, absolutely. I’ve heard a lot about you said. I think it was cloc.

Is that the Consortium of Legal Operations? Yeah, that’s Clock. So that’s Corporate Legal Operations Consortium. Big event in Vegas every year.

Awesome. Yeah, Cleo, I might see you there. They tried to get me to come to Austin this year.

I just couldn’t make it work. But I’m looking forward to CLIO Con next year. Really hoping to go there.

And fun story. I’m actually going to have someone from CLIO on next month’s episode, Joshua Lennon. He’s there in House counsel.

And he’ll be coming on to the podcast. That should be a great discussion. Awesome.

Yeah. If you can think of any questions I could surprise him with, shoot them to me in our LinkedIn chat. I’m excited to have him on to talk about his legal tech survey he’s been doing for several years.

A lot of cool tools there. I used it not too long ago to help a firm benchmark. And if you don’t know what that is, look me up at CIO Legal.

How would folks get in touch with you, Colin, if they want to follow you and read some of your articles? Yeah. So two ways. One is on LinkedIn.

I have a legal tech newsletter that you can subscribe to for free on LinkedIn. Upload notes on legal text. That’s one way.

The other way is to check out my blog and reach out for, you know, for a more personalized connection via my website, Colin Slevy dot com. That’s C-O-L-I-N-S-L-E-V-Y dot com and of course, if you want to check out my book, it’s available on Amazon Worldwide. Wonderful.

Colin. It’s been so nice having you on. Colin.

Thank you so much for joining me today. And sun listeners, we’ll see you out there. Keep coming back.

There’s more hosts than just me. We talk about a lot of different things here on the SunLeaders podcast. Of course, you can look out for my episodes third Thursday of every month where I talk about legal technology, operations and service management.

If you’re a solo practicing attorney or a small firm administrator, there’s a lot for you on my podcast. But if you, if you’re an entrepreneur or any sun listener out there, you would find a lot from some of our other podcast hosts as well. Thank you so much for joining us today and I hope you have a wonderful day.

Sam.