Welcome to the Mental Note podcast and I’m Dr. Darrell R. Pulley. I just came to put something on your mind, to give you something to think about, something to pull apart and something to bring back together. On the Mental Note Podcast, we’re here to provide you with practical strategies to live a holistically healthy, balanced and well rounded life.

I’m a mental health professional and I am a minister and I like to marry psychology and theology to address the whole person, spirit, soul and body. So welcome again to the Mental Note Podcast. Today’s episode is about recovery, that you need a therapist and a sponsor.

You need a sponsor and a therapist. Not either or, but both. And 50% of my clientele is as a mental health professional are in recovery.

They’re in some type of 12 step program, a a program. And in these programs they have five aspects of recovery to focus on. Spirituality, sobriety, sponsorship, steps and service.

Again, that’s Spirituality, sobriety, sponsorship, steps and service. It’s believed that if a person’s in recovery and they’re into their spirituality, their sobriety, they got a sponsor, they follow the steps and they do service, that they’ll be able to keep their recovery in a sense by giving it away. And I personally believe that everybody is in recovery for something.

Whether you are diagnosed or not, whether you are in an A program or not. I believe that we all are in recovery from something, whether it’s drugs, alcohol, sex, chocolate, coffee, food, soda, gambling, could be relationship codependency, some abuse or trauma that we’ve had in our lives. I believe that our a part of the human experience is that we are in recovery from something.

So when a person is in recovery, they’re not weird, they’re not strange, it’s not something wrong with them. They are really addressing the human condition. Because again, I believe that we’re all in recovery for something.

And some of us may not be consciously in recovery, we may not be consciously working on what it is that we are in recovery from, but we’re getting our research and we’re taking life journey to, on that path, on that road to recovery. So today we’re going to talk about a part of the recovery process of needing a therapist and a sponsor. Because many times people are in recovery or have dealt with addiction because there’s some trauma, there is some unhealed part of them, and so they reach for
something or someone outside of themselves to cope, to deal with whatever, whatever it is that they are experiencing.

So today we’re going to talk about needing a sponsor and a Therapist that sometimes people, they get into 12 step programs and they get a sponsor, somebody to kind of walk with them through the steps, to walk with them through the recovery process, and the person might have deeper issues than what the sponsor is qualified to deal with. So they need to be in therapy as well. Or sometimes people are in therapy and the therapist says, in addition to doing therapy, you also need to be a part of a 12
step program where you can get the support that you need of people that are dealing with the same issue or something very similar to what it is that you’re dealing with.

You get a group, a home group, you get a sponsor, you get literature, you got meetings and people you can call all of these support systems to help you live a holistically healthy, balanced, well rounded life, to help you be able to be the best person that you can be and to live the absolute best life that you can live. So today I’m so excited to have a guest, my first guest, on the Mental Note podcast, Courtney Lloyd, who is my cousin, who is my sister, my friend, my colleague, business partner.
We have so many different levels to our relationship, and one of the ways that we connect is that Courtney is a lcswc, that she is a mental health professional and the president of Masterminds, clinical counseling and consulting firm.

Hey, Courtney, how you doing? Welcome to the Mental Note podcast. Hello, Dr. Bishop, cousin, confidant, best friend, twin. How are you? I am absolutely wonderful.

I am overjoyed to be able to share this space with you and with our listening audience to have you with us on the Mental Note podcast because I know you got some tips and some strategies to help us live better lives. So my first thing I desire to ask you is how long you’ve been doing therapy. So thanks for having me.

You’re welcome. As the first guest, I get to set precedent here. Um, so I have been a therapist since, I would say, about 2011.

Okay. I was addictions counselor prior to that. And I’ve always been interested in the way the human condition manifests in different behaviors, both maladaptive and positive.

So, yeah, it’s been a while. Wow. Since 2011.

That’s a good long time. You said you started off as an addictions counselor. That’s correct.

So you’ve got a history of working with people in recovery and supporting them along that recovery journey? Absolutely. And I found that I wanted to go further. Once I was certified as an addictions counselor, I found that there were some things that I wasn’t quite connecting.

And so I wanted to further my education and get my master’s degree and be able to help an eclectic group of people, people that had concomitant factors that were going on, that had dual diagnoses and things like that. So it’s been a wonderful journey. It’s so rewarding.

Absolutely. Of all the things that you can be in the world today, what made you pick being a therapist? Such a great question. I don’t know that I picked being a therapist.

I think the field of helping chose me and I. I didn’t know what was going to happen. It started as a engineering student in college and. And then running into some glitches in my own matrix that made me seek help.

And so being a person that needed to seek help, I started falling in love with the process when my own light bulb came on. Wow. I was like, maybe there are people out here like me that could use my experience to evolve.

And so it kind of chose me out of necessity. Wow. Yes.

I had the opportunity to tell my story on the first podcast and if you missed that, go back and catch that episode where I talked about being in therapy and the gift of therapy. And it was a wonderful gift given to me that I desired to share with other people. So it sounds like you had a very similar experience of sharing with other people the gift that you received.

Absolutely. And I did catch your first podcast and I was, I was deeply moved because we were in college around the same time at the same school, Morgan State University, msu. And so.

And I remembered you were being more like the light part of our DNA and I was more of the darker part of our DNA. And so people would let you know that your cousin was, you know, a little bit wild on the bridge at Mckeldin Center. Go getter.

And I’m grateful that we both had these journeys. As a 20 year old, a sophomore at Morgan State University, I was pregnant and I had an engineering scholarship from NASA and I was supposed to do all these great things, but I was partying. And so as a young mother, I needed a social worker, I needed an independence card, I needed WIC and all of those things.

And I remembered that social services became my best friend. I don’t know that I could have been a 20 year old mother with a brand new baby living out there on my own kind of killed my dreams of being an engineer. And I didn’t know then that it was part of my journey, that I was never supposed to be an engineer.

Wow. That I was always supposed to be a therapist, a social worker, a social justice person. A change agent to love people through whatever choices they made and to be able to create a positive narrative, even out of adversity.

And that’s what people need, and that’s what therapy provides, a space for unconditional love. A place where you know that you can say whatever and you’re not going to be judged, that your feelings are going to be validated, that you’re going to be supported and encouraged. And I believe in that therapeutic environment that people grow, that they thrive, that they become and they unfold just because the conditions are right.

Kind of like a plant, if it has the right conditions and you give it the water and the sunlight, it grows. And I see so many people grow from session to session, from week to week, from month to month, from year to year. I see so many people grow as a result of the therapeutic experience.

And that is so rewarding, absolutely beautiful. And what happens is a lot of people don’t always take the time to extrapolate strengths. And so in adverse situation, in calamity, being a young mother or being someone who was recently incarcerated, or someone who has a family that’s in upheaval, a lot of people don’t take the time.

I think a therapist helps you to frame how strong you must have been to have been able to make it to this point. Because, I mean, you know, yes, you know, we may have made some missteps, but how did you make it? A lot of people don’t ask you how you made it through. A lot of people ask, you know, what.

What decisions, you know, do you wish you could have done differently or. Or what part did you play in that, that that caused your calamity. But, but how did you make it through? You must have been resilient, you must have been tough, you must have been resourceful.

And the same energy that it be a young mother or to go and get money every day to buy drugs is very much like an entrepreneur. I mean, this is like, this is your industry. And so how can we flip those strengths, that tenacity, into a more positive lifestyle? Because the same skills exist.

Just one was for right and one was for wrong. So how do we flip that? And that’s what my life has become. That’s the thing that I try to capture in our work, is to say, however, yet you stand.

And yet you stand. You are still here. You are still here despite all the challenges that you have faced, all the addictions that you might be dealing with.

And one of my clients, lately, they’ve been talking about being addicted to Their phone, like, just constantly scrolling on the phone where they’re not really present to their partner. They’re not really present in social settings because they’re checking their text messages and they’re scrolling through IG or X or. And they said that it’s consuming them.

And they feel like there’s really something going on because instead of reaching within, they’re reaching for this phone to distract them from the things that are really going on. And so I’ve been working with clients as well to overcome addictions as it relates to social media and being on the phone. That there’s a time and place for everything and to not allow something to consume you.

But you determine how much or how less you’re going to have this in your life. Absolutely. And there’s a.

There’s a part of the brain, the Olympic region, that a lot of people have done massive, massive research on. But there’s a light up. There’s a light bulb that happens with immediate gratification.

It’s the same light bulb that drugs provide. It’s the same light bulb that shopping provides. It’s the same as you said in your opening, that sex provides, that running provides, that gambling provides.

And so with the immediate gratification of getting a. Like. With the immediate gratification of someone seeing me, it is so much fun to know that we’re seen.

It’s actually the pleasure zone that’s being lit up. And so it definitely. I think you’re so insightful.

It definitely is an addiction because it’s giving you this stimulant immediately, and it calls you by name and your own voice to say, hey, I wonder how many likes we got. I wonder what this person is doing. It’s immediate access to pleasure.

Absolutely. So it is more fun than waiting for the person in front of me to stimulate me. I can get stimulated by a million people at one time on social media.

And so it’s definitely something that we don’t talk enough about. I’m glad that your patient was able to make that connection that I’m. My limpic region is lighting up every time.

And then when I put it down, it’s like, I gotta go back and check. It’s the same compulsion and obsession that’s associated with any vice or addiction. It’s a drug.

Absolutely. And so sobriety and recovery and addiction are such a part of our society. Are such a part.

Sometimes we have those acceptable addictions, you know, where society kind of winks at and say, oh, it’s not so bad. And then we have those unacceptable addictions where they’re criminal and people are ostracized and people are considered other and they are pushed away because of their addiction. But it’s the same thing, it’s the same root cause that I’m not enough, so I need to reach for something or someone else, that I’m not good enough, that I’m not worthy, that something happened and I don’t
want to deal with all the feelings and emotions that go along with that.

So let me get a painkiller, let me find something to numb out so I don’t have to deal with what’s really going on with me. And for some people, that might be a cigarette. For some people it might be a drink, like you said, it might be gambling, something to get me high, to get me where I don’t have to deal with life on life’s terms, that I can escape to someplace else.

So let me ask you this question. How many people in your practice do you feel are you are in recovery? Well, that’s, that’s, that’s a multi layered question. Um, can you ask me differently? Um, like what percentage, like, do you think maybe half your clients are struggling with some type addiction or in recovery? That’s the question.

Yeah, that’s the question. So, so, and I’m just messing with you, of course, but, but struggling with addiction, I would say 60 to 75% in recovery. I don’t know.

You know, on a day to day basis, we could be moving toward using or moving towards abstinence. But abstinence from what? And so I don’t think, because I have a challenge, I’m in recovery. I think that some people have acquiesced to being in a loop of using, Whether it’s codependency in a relationship or denial about weight or, or whatever the case may be.

And I often think about myself, I’m always on a diet. Tomorrow, you know, I’m, I’m telling you, you know, eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow. Ye diet was a magnet that I had.

And tomorrow is always the next day. So, so like some of us are in active addiction, some of us are in those five stages of change where we may be in pre contemplation contemplation. We may be in, you know, some type of execution of a new plan.

Some people have strategies to go from, you know, eating carbs every day to only on the weekends or one day a week reduction. So it’s so hard to dichotomize recovery from active addiction because there’s a Continuum, there are stages. And so, you know, in me messing with you, like how many of your people in recovery? I don’t know how many people have addictions? 75 to 80% that I know of.

And like, if you don’t give me my coffee in the morning, I’m a grizzly bear. So am I. Which one am I? You know, I have no desire to stop drinking coffee. So am I an active addiction to coffee or am I in recovery? Or I’m in denial, you know? You know, in the recovery rooms people say denial stands for don’t even know I am lying.

You know, so it’s, it’s, it’s a funny, it’s a funny kind of thing. So I mean, and we could be better in one area and kind of not so good in another. It’s like holding a bunch of beach balls underwater and hoping that one doesn’t pop up, you know.

So I would say we deal with this every single day. I personally have chosen to drink coffee every day regardless of the circumstance, you know, by which I have to get it. You know, I’ll tell you a funny story real quick.

My Nespresso machine broke and I had to be somewhere and I couldn’t accommodate that. I couldn’t have coffee. And I had thrown all my other coffee machines and instant stuff away because I was so in love with this machine and it did not work.

Wow. And I called the people and I was complaining and screaming and hollering and I just remember, oh, you could go buy a cup of coffee. But I really had to melt down because my routine, my ritual, had been broken.

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Contact us today at infoamencreative.com or visit our website at naamancreative.com to get started. Yes, and I believe, as you said, that people Deal with addictions. But recovery is certainly a choice to not be in a denial about it, to look at it and to see, okay, how is this serving me? How is this impacting my finances? How is this impacting my health? How is this impacting my relationships? How is this impacting my money, my wealth? What impact is this having on me? Am I able to fulfill my
dreams? Am I able to pursue and accomplish my goals? Is this slowing me down? Is this stopping me? Is this a hindrance, a roadblock to my success? And it’s something to look at, something to think about.

And only each person can answer that for themselves. Nobody else can tell somebody else that you’re an addict or you need to be in recovery, or you need to be sober or what sobriety is. That’s something that is so personal that people have to own for themselves and know for themselves, because each person is a unique, unrepeatable expression of God.

And so everybody’s path is different. Everyone’s journey is different. And I believe that everyone’s recovery is just as unique.

Absolutely. And that powerlessness and unmanageability, that declaration that a person’s life is unmanageable and that they’re powerless over that thing or that behavior is an individual choice. You’re absolutely right.

And you have to come to it. Yes. And until you do, there’s always a caveat of how to use successfully.

It’s like, oh, I should just do it this way. Or maybe it’s this person, or maybe it’s this place, or maybe it’s this drug or this behavior or this action. But, I mean, I think you have encapsulated it perfectly because it is an individual choice.

And some people are okay with the consequences for now. So it’s like, is the juice worth the squeeze? Because if it’s just a little teeny bit. I think biblically, they talk about a mustard seed.

And so it’s just a little discrepancy that, hey, this is gay, unmanageable. And I try to stop, but I can’t. So how maladaptive is it for my life? What are the consequences? What are the rewards? And, you know, it’s kind of absurd to ask someone to give up their best friend before they’re ready.

Absolutely. And so people have to learn, because life keeps lifing, and we have ups and downs and highs and lows, and we go back and forth and in and out, and it’s just life. It’s the human experience.

And so we need to be able to have some healthy Coping mechanisms, some strategies to help us make it through. You know, I try to work with clients to build like a, like a support kit, like a repertoire of different resources that they can use, like journaling and meditation and mindfulness and breathing and as you said, exercise that they may not be totally ready to let go of those unhealthy coping mechanisms. And so before I ask you to stop this or this isn’t working, or did, let’s add some
things in there.

And then as you add some more things in your coping backpack that you say, oh, I’ve been doing this breathing thing and that works, so maybe I can cut down a little bit on that or cut that out because I’ve got some other healthy coping mechanisms that are helping me to get where I’m trying to go. And so I think that that’s the big part of therapy is empowering people with some healthy coping mechanisms. And then they can really kind of look at those unhealthy coping mechanisms and decide, you
know, when and if and how much.

Absolutely. And it’s fun too, to create discrepancy. That’s another skill that you and I use is to say, okay, you said that, you know, your marriage, for example, is not going well and that you’re not working and you know, your car is not running.

And those are the manifestations of what do you remember when they were working and your marriage was good and, and your car was running and you were employed? You know, do, do you remember the time in your life before you had this addiction take off? Do you, do you agree, so to speak, that you were able to do all those other things when you didn’t get high? And so do you think getting high has something to do with the car or the job or the relationship? Because if I stop using and my life gets
better, there’s all the evidence you need. Absolutely. You already have everything you need inside of you.

But there’s something blocking or interrupting and it’s. And an obsession and compulsion to do something that is interrupting everything else because it is very destructive. And it matriculates into every area of the life.

It is not mutually exclusive to just health or spiritual or physical or emotional or psychological. It infiltrates every area. And so I have utmost respect for the way that neurochemistry works.

And whether it’s something that we ingest or something that we behave in, like the foam, it doesn’t have to be, you know, something we put in there to change. But any mano mood altering process that changes the chemistry automatically makes the body Responsive viscerally to that stimulus. You know, whether it’s a depressant or a stimulant.

It’s a very, very broad, universal attack on the person’s true self. Absolutely. And I love what you said, that everything that we need is inside of us.

And when we’re in active addiction, we forget that, or maybe we didn’t know that, that everything we need is inside of us. Because God is inside of us. That is correct.

Just as close as our breath. And so when we stop breathe, we can tap into that allness that is inside of us that is healthy, that is whole. There is a healthy part of us.

And it’s a matter of tapping into that and everything. And I think that that’s really countering the addiction, is that. Wait a minute.

Everything I need is inside of me. I can enjoy this, but what I need is inside of me. I can, you know, enjoy this person, this place, this thing, this behavior, this activity in moderation.

But I don’t need it. It’s not gonna be where if I don’t get it, that I’m not gonna be able to survive because everything I need is inside me. I think about when I was a teacher and my students would fight over seats.

I said, no, your seat is attached to. It goes with you everywhere you go. And so everything we need is inside of us.

Just as close as our breath. Because God is inside of us. Spirit, universe, light, love is inside of us.

And it’s that breathing that helps us to get in touch with that. It’s in the stillness. Some people call it a moment of clarity where we’re able to tap in and get in touch with what has been there the entire time.

And it comes. I love that it comes like a freight train. It’s like an epiphany that maybe I do need pharmacology to detox, or maybe I do need to regain my stamina in order to address the other thing.

But what happens when people get into recovery is once they get that chemical or that behavior in control is that other stuff pops out and it’s like, oh, I thought I was going to be good when I stopped drinking, but I’m a lunatic. Wait a minute. I had behaviors prior to.

If I think back to childhood. So was it the chicken or the egg? You know, like, wait. People refer to some, you know, with.

With Alcoholics Anonymous as a dry drunk. It’s like, you still crazy. We maybe need to give you a drink because we liked when you were comatose.

You had issues before, and a lot of people that I’ve journeyed with come to a place of dissatisfaction because there’s no immediate gratification for addressing life on life terms. Life lives. That’s what you said earlier.

And wait, I’m homeless, without any drugs or alcohol or whatever the case may be. And I don’t have a job, but I don’t have an address to put on this resume. And I don’t have a phone and I don’t have a key.

I’m in the shelter. Like, this is not fun, you know, and so it’s a whole cluster of things. The absurdity of getting clean.

And I say that because it’s so counterintuitive to what the disease of addiction wants. And we can personify or objectify the disease of addiction as an entity because it attacks every area of our lives. And so when it, when it calls us by our own name and our own voice and says, courtney, I know you said you don’t want me, but you miss me.

And everybody’s so messed up in this world, you couldn’t even see it before. But you know, now if you just come on back, we don’t have to deal with it. That escapism that you spoke of.

And so there’s, there’s the crucible. That’s, that’s the, that’s the crossroads in recovery is when a person gets clean. They’re detox, they start living life on life terms and life is done.

Disenchanting. At that point, drugs or alcohol seem more fun. And I think that’s the point when people need something beyond a sponsor.

When those childhood traumas, because I’m no longer self medicating, I’m no longer using this painkiller, now all of those issues and traumas and dramas are coming up and how do I need to work through those? Or I’m going to go back, I’m going to relapse, I’m going to go back to what was comfortable and what was familiar. So that leads us to. Do you think people need a sponsor and a therapist? And why or why not? Yes, I think it would be helpful.

I question my judgment as to what I think a person needs. I think a person has to determine that. But I would love to highlight the value of both.

Because if I tell you what you need and it doesn’t work the way you thought it would, it’s on me. But if I ask you what you need and you say a place to process some of these childhood traumas, a place to process some abuse or, or misnomers, that I’ve named as love. That may have been lust or whatever the case may be, then I have you tried therapy? Therapy might be able to support you in that process.

Because an addict is one of the most hard headed people in the world because they had to go against themselves for so long. So I know you not gonna listen to me if you ain’t listen to your, your, your God self. You know, you ignore so many things.

Your mama, your daddy, whomever. But most of all we ignore ourselves when we’re caught in the grip of addiction. And so I think compelling a person is tough.

So I preface that with I don’t want to tell anybody. You need both. But I’m going to ask you to ask yourself, do you think it’s a good idea? Because there’s no wrong way to recover.

There’s no wrong way to be a good person. And I think that it depends on how far you want to go. I think some of the benefits of having a therapist is that we have a different level of confidentiality.

A sponsor is amazing unless they struggle and if they relapse, which can be part of recovery, then all your secrets, all your deep dark stuff that you kind of uncovered with that person goes with them. We have a little bit more ethical codes that we have to follow to protect you. And in a therapy session the therap is only your person doesn’t belong to anybody else.

They hold space only for you. So it’s an exclusive direct connection to an individual who’s professionally trained to hold your thoughts and to hold your feelings and to reframe them and inspire to challenge you to be your best self. Using you as the biggest tool is selfless judgment free.

And I’ve known people who’ve had sponsors who have made opinions about what they supposed to do and not do what you need to do and do it like me and all of that. I think the value of sponsorship is experience and identification that I’ve been where you are and we can go there. I don’t think that’s required for a therapist.

So I think both would be great. I’m an and not an or person. But I think multiple things like we discussed earlier between spirituality.

If a person has a religious preference then then the religious aspect which is different from spirituality for a lot of people. I, I know that agnostics and atheists can also benefit from therapy and recovery 12 step programs. So I think everything.

I like your, your terminology about toolkit and a backpack like was not good about having an eclectic bag of resources that can Feed all of the parts. You know, it didn’t get to a place of escapism through one aspect of the self. And so however many good things you need around you to speak to all of those aspects of the self that are struggling is always best practice to me.

There’s benefits to both. Absolutely. And I love that you highlighted that.

What the sponsor has is experience and identification. I think that is so clearly stated. The sponsor has the experience with the particular addiction that you’re working on and they can identify because they’ve been there and done that.

Whereas a therapist provides you with that unconditional positive regard. But they may not have that direct experience and cannot identify with it directly, but can relate to the feelings, can relate to maybe a similar experience. But they’re able to give you that professionalism and they’re able to give you some structure and support to go deeper because of their training.

So I can see how a person can benefit from both and versus either or. And I like that you said we’re not going to tell them what they need, but to ask them the deeper question and then be able to invite them to add to their bag, to add to their backpack, their recovery backpack, to add to their sobriety toolkit so that they can be more expansive. I love that idea of inviting people to think deeper about it.

So before we go, tell us a little bit about Masterminds. Okay, so Masterminds, clinical counseling and consulting firm, I know that’s a mouthful. Is a private practice that was developed with the client in mind.

And so a lot of my hesitation is always about collaboration because I don’t want to be the expert. I can’t be the expert on you. I’m not you.

You’re the expert on you. And so we designed our logo with two heads coming together on an even plane. Because I believe that our patients are the experts in their own life and we are channeling them to help them see themselves more clearly and to encourage them invite and encourage them to become their best selves.

And so I always like to say that it is even that we are putting our heads together to come up with more positive solutions that will bring more fulfillment into each of our patients lives. And so that’s the preface. There’s no big I little you.

We’re masterminds with an S. And I’m so grateful that you’re part of Masterminds that you helped develop it from inception, that you’re my business partner. With Masterminds we see people both virtually and face to face.

Our place of Service is in St. Petersburg downtown. And for more information you can go to HTTPs S colon, forward slash, forward slash Masterminds with an S counseling dot com or you can call myself or Dr. Pulley and we’ll, we’ll invite and encourage you to come and check us out. I love that.

Give us that website again if someone is interested in finding out more about Masterminds or maybe even becoming a client. Absolutely. So it’s HTTPs.

Masterminds counseling.com and we would love to journey with you. We also have so many other things that I could tell you, but I will say that it’s a safe place and a safe space. And Dr. Pullio, I would love to be your person.

Absolutely. And I love how we collaborate and work together and make referrals to each other because I think we have something special in this therapeutic arena to be able to offer people. So thank you again for being a part of the Mental health podcast with Dr. Pulley and our guest today, Courtney Lloyd.

Thank you so much for being here and sharing with us your story and how you’ve helped so many people as a result of the therapeutic situation. We thank you for being a part of the Mental Note podcast where we’re providing you with something, putting something on your mind, giving you something to think about, something to pull apart and to bring back together, to provide you with practical tips to live a holistically healthy, balanced and well rounded life. And if you desire to find out more about
Mental Notes, you can go to our website, that’s Dr. Pulley.com d o c T O R Pulley P U L L E Y Or if you got questions that you desire to email me, you can email me directly at Dr. D O C T O R P u L l e y mail.com and I hope that you got something today that helps you to remember that it’s a both and and not an either or that you can benefit from having a sponsor and a therapist.

Sa.