Hello and welcome to the SunLeaders podcast. My name is Whitney Smith and I am the owner and attorney of your rental property Attorney pllc, which is a real estate law firm that focuses primarily on landlords. Due to my firm’s unique niche, I spend the majority of my time and energy thinking about the real estate industry, landlord tenant relationships and the affordable housing community.

I find both positive and negative factors that affect the real estate industry are interrelated with and affect the housing community and likewise trickle down to affect landlord tenant relationships. I believe through effective leadership we can make more positive changes in these industries. And therefore I wanted to focus my episodes for the Sun Leaders podcast on female leaders in either the real estate industry or affordable housing communities that are specifically leading a team or
community to betterment.

In this episode we sit down with Natalia Goldenberg, a seasoned project manager in the real estate development industry. Natalia shares her journey from owning her own business to navigating the challenges of leading a predominantly male team. And we will discuss the triumphs and trials of being a female leader second in command and and how her diverse experience shapes her leadership style.

Natalia, I am so excited to have you here on the podcast. Whitney, thanks for having me. I’m happy to be here as well.

Looking forward to discussing everything. Yeah, I really thought that this conversation would be needed because you and I have similarities in our career paths where we’ve gone back and forth from working in a corporate structure to trying entrepreneurship to going back to corporate structures. And I’ve been back and forth.

I think I definitely like being totally in control of things, although some days I just want to hand my problems off to anybody else, you know. So it’s a really interesting and sometimes can get really, I think almost more complex when you’re trying to lead a team, but you have to answer to a leader above you. So I thought that you would be perfect for this conversation.

I’m really excited about it. Can you describe a little bit of what you do and how your day typically goes? Sure. So I work for a development firm.

We are a small family office here and we do ground up construction. So mostly multifamily projects that we do. We have some industrial and some limited service hotels.

Okay, and. And in what? In your position? So how many people do you manage typically? And, and what are those people that you manage? Like what are their positions? So it actually depends on the project. My focus is on multi family.

So when we are looking for our multi family projects, I’m involved from anywhere from finding the land, underwriting it, designing it permitting it, then managing the construction and we end up selling it. So everyone that I manage is going to be a consultant that we hire. So I’ll be managing the architects, civil engineer, working directly with the city, our landscape architects, interior design, the construction team, property managers and then up until when we close and the end buyer.

That’s a lot. And most of them is, are they mostly male consultants? So real estate is still very male dominated industry. You’re seeing a lot.

Some females come in, have a few counterparts that are female on the development side, on the ownership side, but we’re starting to see a lot more females is actually in the engineering. So I have a few civil engineers that are female landscape architects that are female. So it’s great to see that.

But definitely still pretty, pretty male. Yeah. And do you find that you get pushback when you have maybe a new consultant that you’re managing that’s male? So in my experience this actually really hasn’t been, I haven’t really noticed the gender difference.

I don’t know if that’s because of the unique position of being on the ownership side and we’re hiring them and they work for us, but typically everybody has been pretty respectful and it’s just, it’s been actually really great to, to work, work in this industry. That’s good. I mean that’s, that’s refreshing to hear, you know.

And also I also feel even as being an attorney dealing with opposing counsels that are male versus female, sometimes it’s the females that give me more problems. Yeah, yeah, actually I would agree with that. It’s interesting to see the, the dynamics of, I do think if I’m on an email, let’s say with, you know, my boss who’s male, a lot of times the questions will be directed to him first, but once they realize that really I’m the one that’s, that’s handling everything, it’s an easy transition.

And then, you know, the emails start and other questions start coming to me. But it definitely is the deferred to go to the mail first. Right.

So when you were first hired on, were you, were you given structure on how to handle the consultants that you would be managing or were you give, were they wanting you to explore your own leadership style? So the advantage of working in a small office is that there really isn’t a lot of rules, regulations or parameters. So it gives you a little room for growth and finding yourself. And it was very much, you know, trial by error.

And once I started managing and working on the projects with the Consultants, you know, I really had to find my own voice and you know, confidence in myself to give the direction necessary and that was really just everything that I went through and experienced on my own. So. So no real.

This is how you do it. Which you know, can, can be great because then you can really get your feet wet and, and you know, learn by fire. No, it’s awesome because.

And also it, I think it helps you have more authority with those that you’re consulting with. In my previous, in a couple previous jobs I was managing a, a department and I thought that I was hired to have free leeway because they really appreciated my confidence and like the fact that I had 20 years of leading teams already and, and then I noticed that there was like a struggle between me and my boss because ultimately my boss wanted the final say in things which of course they should have the
final say in some things but some other things should just be like that are too tiny. Should be just the, or the second command, you know.

So we kind of had like a power struggle for a while. Which can happen. Yeah, that, that I understand.

I think there’s a way to try to manage that. But I, I do experience a little bit of that as well. But I think it’s, it’s hopefully the more time you work, the more your boss will trust you and, and loosen the reins of it.

Right, exactly. So what strategies do you use to have that communication between what you need your consultants to do and then like how your boss might. The expectations of your, your higher ups.

How do you communicate like what you’re doing? So they did, they do trust you. So I’m really cognizant of what is on my boss’s plate and I think that is one way to effectively manage up really understand what your boss is handling and working with on a day to day so you can take things off their plate and make it easy. So because of that I try to pay attention to what I am putting in his inbox.

I’m a proponent of over communicating rather than under communicating. So I really like emails and I will CC basically the whole team that’s involved in it if it’s, you know, interior design instructions. And I need to make sure that sometimes the architect’s involved and sometimes the GC is involved.

And if it’s small day to day processes, I don’t necessarily include my boss because those emails can go back and forth right. When you’re discussing decisions and, and ways to solve problems. But at the end of the day I always make sure I follow up and for the big decisions, it’s more, you know, I, I have a list and then I communicate all those decisions that were made to my boss.

So he’s in the loop of the overall idea of what’s going on on the project. But the day to day nuance is, is really something that I’m pushing and moving forward and I don’t necessarily include him on those things. Yeah.

And in writing is super good practice. In writing. Yes.

And especially if you do have a phone conversation too, then follow up. I’m just recapping what we talked about and. Yeah, exactly.

That’s very helpful. Everybody should also do that in their normal lives. Speaking as the attorney.

So how is your. I knew that before this that you also were an entrepreneur and you had a really interesting business idea that you were pursuing. I don’t know if you want to share, but I thought, I thought it was really interesting.

Sure. So I had previously been living in Israel and I started a concierge business bringing Americans to Israel for treatment in idf. And the idea behind that is that IDF here is not normally covered under insurance and it’s very expensive.

And the medical treatment and care in Israel is on par. This have the same success rates as the US that everything is so much cheaper. Medicine is cheaper there, the doctors are, treatment are cheaper there.

So it was really just helping people get the treatment that they need and the business of bringing Americans there and the whole process and logistics behind that. And so that process of starting a business, running a business. And do you bring that into your leadership skills today? I do.

So the major thing I learned starting the business is you really need to have a clear picture of what it is you’re doing. You know, what’s your, what is the overall idea and where you want to get. And then you have to make your goals to get there and the processes to get there.

And that’s really the same thing for development. So we have our end goal, right. We want to build 300 plus units and we have this piece of land.

So how do we make it happen? And that’s how you, you start the process. And really how I manage and work through problems is you have the end goal and every step along the way to get you there. Right.

And so when conflicts or disagreements come up with your consults, when it comes to that strategy plan, do you, are you the person that makes the decisions as far as how to handle that conflict? I can make the decision up until about 90%. Like you said, you know, some things my boss will have the Final say on. But because, because the consultants are hired by us, they’re generally amenable to what it is that we want.

But sometimes you get the consultant that pushes back and they have their thought. You know, I really don’t think this is going to work or this is a better idea. And I really like listening to what they have to say.

A lot of times the consultants that I work with, they’re more experienced than me. You know, they’ve been in the industry for 20 plus years, so they have a perspective that I might not have. But at the end of the day, I still have to remember what the final goal is and does their opinion or their thought process align with our final goal? And that’s how I usually decipher and decide what is good.

And then instead of asking my boss, hey, what do you think? I go to them and say, this is what I think. Do you agree? Right. And that way you’re really making the final decision.

And they can say yes. Or if there’s something that you haven’t seen or haven’t thought or, or they know something that you don’t, they can bring that in and you can course correct. Yeah, I love that.

And you’re not, I’m assuming that you’re not just saying this is what I think you’re saying this is why I think because this, this, this and this, you’ve already done the research for them, you’ve already had the conversation with the consultant, and then essentially you’re just handing them yay or nay. Exactly. Yes, I have learned that.

So there’s, there’s about three people actually that I report to, and each one has their own priorities and their own way of how they like things. So I’ve learned to put all my information together and present it to them in the way that they like and then I can explain, you know, this is the decision because of X, Y and Z. And here’s the backup which makes it easy for them and it really gives me the autonomy and the power to make the decision.

Yeah, I love that. And you’ve developed that through trial and error? I have, yes. So when I first started, I really was a little bit more passive.

You know, I didn’t want to feel like I was stepping on toes because I was really cognizant of where I was versus where they were. And I really thought it would be better to say, take a more passive role and let them hand down the decision. But what I found is that they have their own stop on their plate and they’re Working on their own things.

And that’s really not good. If you’re trying to move up, it doesn’t show that you can think critically, solve problems, and take on the roles and responsibilities. And if you’re looking to move up, that’s what you need to show.

So if you do it in a respectful way of this is the decision, this is why do you agree? It makes it really easy for them to see, okay, this person is competent, you know what they’re doing, they can handle things. But yet took me a little bit of time to realize that, and once I did, it’s helped tremendously. Yeah.

Can you share an example of a particularly challenging project that you’ve managed and overcome an obstacle? Sure. So actually, it’s a project that I’m working on currently. We have a multifamily project in New Mexico.

And the city that we’re in there, they’re just. They don’t have a lot of development, so they don’t have a lot of experience. And when you work with cities that aren’t used to developers coming in, sometimes their processes aren’t straightforward.

It’s difficult to get things that you need. The city is slow. And on top of that, we also ended up firing our GC and replacing them with a different gc.

So there’s just a lot of different issues that came up, one thing after another. And really the best way to handle that is one step at a time. So something I like to say is when you feel overwhelmed or you got a lot of problems, change your viewpoint to 45 degrees and it’s one foot in front of the other.

So just one thing, solve that problem, then go on to the next. Before you know it, you know you’ve made progress and you’re. You’re on your way.

But that’s really the only way that we’ve been able to get through those bumps as far as dealing with the city, trying to get permits, and taking on the project from one GC to another. Yeah. I use a similar strategy because what I do is super overwhelming all the time.

There’s. It’s. You can feel like you’re drowning all the time.

There’s so many tasks and deadlines. I’m sure that you have a lot of deadlines as well and that you just have to have calendar, and if you miss a deadline, it’s a really big deal or can be, you know, So I. To keep from feeling overwhelmed, I have to have a conversation with my. First of all, I have to keep a really good task list and Then I have to have a conversation with myself and prioritize that task list every day of like, you know, the top three that actually have to be done today, you know,
and then, and then like, you’re saying, just one of those tasks at a time is all I can do.

If you’re trying to multitask, you’re doing a disservice to somebody. So just completing and finishing, like each task and it’s kind of calming because at the end of the day that you’ve known, you’ve. You’ve checked off what you actually have to check off and you’ve done all you can.

But I’m interested in hearing what you mean by changing your viewpoint 45 degrees. Because, I mean, it’s not an entire. Yeah, yeah.

So, so sorry. So like 45 degrees down, right, like right in front of your. Oh, I think viewpoint you have is 45 degrees and you only see your foot.

So one foot in front of the other. It’s this the same thing that you. You’re describing, right.

When you look at the whole picture, it can become overwhelming. It’s like, oh, my Gosh, I have 2700 things to do. I need to do them all today.

Everything’s on fire. So you just think, okay, let me just put my head down, which is one thing in front of the other. And like you said, prioritize and test.

But I love that idea. So, yeah, looking down 45 degrees at your feet and just taking one step forward, it’s metaphorically just like one, one task to the next and just eventually you’ll get there. Exactly right.

I love that. So you mentioned before that you have. And you’ve.

You’ve kind of explained that you’ve learned that your three bosses styles did. But how do you manage expectations and demands from three bosses? So tell me how you’ve maybe come to those conclusions or. Sure.

So one of the best pieces of advice that I’ve gotten is managing up. And that really gives you some control over your own schedule and your own priorities and your own to do list. And the way that I found that is so each of my bosses has their own personalities, their own styles, and their own priorities and to dos.

So when I get an email from one or direction from, you know, another, it’s a few things that I do. First thing is, you know, which. Which boss is this? I have one that is likes everything now, now, now, now, now, immediately.

And I need to do it right away. I have another one that understands I’ve got a lot on my plate. And so he doesn’t necessarily expect it right away, but he does expect it to be done.

And then I have another one that really I have to get in front of in order to get things done. So once I was able to identify exactly how they work and what their style is, then I can change how I work based off of them. So the other part of that is managing their expectations for the boss that is wants everything.

Now, now, now. If I can do it, I will, because I know that that’s how he likes things and that’s how he values things. If I can’t, then I have to let him know this is what’s going on.

I’ll get it to you by tomorrow. But it’s usually a very quick email back to him, so he knows I saw his stuff and he knows that I’m working on it. So once I know who I’m dealing with, then I look at my own schedule and my own priorities, and I manage it that way.

But the best thing is really understanding how if you report to multiple people how they work and what they need, and in the grand scheme of things, where does their task or their email fall in the overall amount of everything you have on your workplace. Yeah, it sounds a bit exhausting. A little bit, yeah.

But it definitely can be. But somehow you just fall into a routine and you kind of get used to it, and then you just learn to work that way. Thank you for tuning in.

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Yeah. Do you miss being your own boss? I do, yes. So, like you were saying, there’s.

There’s pros and cons to each. The biggest thing I missed is the freedom. So when you’re doing your own thing, your schedule and everything is really yours.

Right. How much you work, what you’re working on, what you bring in, it’s all on your shoulders, which, in a way is very freeing and it’s wonderful. But on the other hand, sometimes that can just be super daunting and just overwhelming.

Yep. And terrifying. So I do miss that, that part of it, the freedom.

But I’m in a place right now where I’m learning a lot, and this is helping me in the direction that I want to go. So. So it’s give and take, right.

Plus and minuses and just. Yeah. Wherever you feel you’re at for that time.

Right. Yeah, I agree completely. And it’s.

I think that it’s all too easy to say that you want to run your own show or want to be a boss when you’ve never been that. So, like you coming from a place where you’ve already done that, you know exactly what to what you are or not gaining by not having that anymore, you know? Yeah, yeah. I think there is this glamorization of, you know, being an entre entrepreneur and being your own boss, but it’s.

It’s like, it’s really hard. Running your own business is really, really hard and takes a lot of work and I’d say arguably more work than when you have, you know, a W2. But it’s just whatever works for you and whatever your preference is.

I don’t think one is better than the other. And like you said, sometimes in different stages of your life, one may fit you better than the other. Right? Yeah.

What do you find now that you’re in the position that you are? What is the most rewarding thing that you find as being a project manager in like a real estate development agency in your position? What’s rewarding? So construction in general and real estate in general is such a huge learning curve. I talk with people who’ve been in this industry for 20, 25, 30 years, and they’re still learning things. So I love that.

I’m always learning. There’s always something that I didn’t know, whether it’s on the civil side or on the construction side, because I. I studied business in college, so I didn’t have any sort of technical knowledge before I started development. So I really like learning that.

But I think perhaps my favorite thing is actually seeing a project come alive. So we have a project, and it takes from start to finish probably about three years, and you labor for a year and a half or so and everything’s on paper. You see renderings, you see drawings, but then for about 18 months, you really don’t see anything.

And then you see the project actually. Yeah. Coming alive and being built.

And it’s just really cool to say, oh, wow, okay, that I did that. I thought about that. You know, we designed this.

It’s really, really cool. Yeah, I bet. I bet that’s awesome and so satisfying.

Right? Yeah. So how do you. Your role is? I. I’m going to say it’s demanding.

I Mean, you have three higher ups to think about and then you have all of your team and projects that you have to think about and the balance in between. So how do you maintain, do you maintain actually a work life balance? Yes. So this is a big one and I think when I was in my 20s, I really wasn’t good about this.

But you gotta draw some boundaries and I think it’s setting that expectation for your bosses as well. So I really try not to work on the weekends unless it’s, you know, absolutely necessary things come up and of course I’m available for that, but generally I try to stay off email and I try not to work on the weekends and same for the, for the evenings. I have two projects that are on the west coast, so there is that time difference.

So sometimes I will be working a little bit late. But in general you just have to be super diligent about what you’re willing to do and stick to that. Now when you’re trying to, you know, get promoted and move up, maybe there are times where you have to work a little bit more, a little bit longer.

But in general, I’m a big proponent of boundaries and sticking to that. Yeah, I used to be. But I think boundaries are super important and there’s.

They can be really hard to stick to. Honestly, I find them really hard to stick to now in my position than I did before when I was second in command. Honestly, I think.

And I don’t know what happens there. I don’t know if it’s a confidence level because you are also in charge of paying bills. Maybe that’s what it is.

I think I just figured it out, you know, like you, you’re worried so you, your boundaries get looser, but it’s not great for your mental health. I. Before I became an attorney, I was a dog groomer. I was dog groomer for 20 years.

I had my own business for 10 years. I had my own salon. And then I managed other dog grooming salons for other people.

And I learned my biggest lesson was that you have to train people just like you have to train dogs. And like you’re saying that you are very cognizant of the fact of not answering emails on the weekends. That’s a boundary.

Telling someone, I will be available to you when I’m supposed to be available to you, which is like business hour. That’s letting them know how to treat you. Right.

Like training them. And it’s super valuable to your entire life, really, you know. Yeah, I think I try to use that in all aspects of my life, it’s easy to forget, but it’s a big deal and I think it, it really helps.

Yeah. I have this email signature that I, I put on right when I opened my firm that says that my business hours are Monday through Thursday, 9:30 to 5:30 and that and like big bold letters that says like, you know, we, you know, I, I don’t even know what it says. Something we respect.

Work life balance. Here. Observe.

Work life balance is not true. It’s not true. I’m always accessible and I need to.

My goal moving forward into my next year of owning the firm is to try to stick more to those boundaries because otherwise then it goes back to feeling overwhelmed. Right? Yeah, that’s a great goal. And I think since you are the owner and it is your firm, it’s easy to, to get in that place because you feel such intense ownership.

Right. It’s kind of like your baby. But I would say, I think one of the advantages of a W2 is a little bit more stability in a sense because I definitely wasn’t like this when I was doing my thing in Israel.

Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s funny how you can like, it’s, it’s. Yeah.

Maybe the structure of being in a W2 actually gives you the, like the confidence. There are rules again, you know, for a W2 employees. So like that also gives you a benefit of being able to put down those boundaries, you know, because you’re backed up.

So I think we kind of dived into this a little bit. But how aside from, you know, just doing one task to another, it kind of ties into your work life balance. Do you have keep any self help habits of dealing with stress when you’re not at work? I work out a lot.

Yeah, definitely. I have to work out. That’s really a great stress reliever for me because if I don’t, I am cranky.

So I think one of the best things to do for yourself is find what works for you, some, some outlet. I’m a big proponent of physical exercise, you know, because I released those endorphins. It’s a great way to get rid of stress.

And it’s definitely noticeable. On the days that I don’t work out, people are like, oh, you didn’t work out this morning, did you? I’m like, no, no. So that, and then I do try to meditate, but that doesn’t always happen.

Sometimes I fall off the bandwagon and then I try to get back on it. But those are, those are really the two Things that I try to do for my sanity. That’s awesome.

I try to meditate, but my brain won’t shut up. It is hard. It’s very hard.

But I do take a lot of stress walks, for sure. So. So what advice would you give to another woman? That it would just be entering your position.

So there’s two things that I would say is one, don’t pay attention to gender. Don’t. Don’t have the thought, oh, I’m the only woman in the room, or I’m the only woman in the team.

Show up, work hard, and let your work ethic and your performance speak for itself. And then the other big thing, especially for women, is ask for what you want. And I love the saying, you know, have the confidence of the mediocre white male.

And there’s nothing wrong with that. Right. Like, guys are great at it.

And I think this is why women need to learn. Ask for what you want, Ask for the raise. Ask, you know, negotiate on your salary.

Don’t accept the first offer. Ask for the. For the next promotion.

Show up in the table. If there’s some meeting going on and you want to sit in on it, ask to sit in on it. If there is a project you want to work on, ask to work on it.

And. And I did not do that when I was younger, and it’s something that I’ve only started figuring out and learning and doing. And it’s really hard.

Yeah. Because in your mind, you think, oh, my gosh, you know, they’re. They’re going to fire me or they’re going to say no or they’re going to laugh at me.

None of that’s going to happen. And what’s going to happen is they’re going to start realizing that you want more, and it’ll help you get a seat in the table. So those are the two things that I would say.

Show up, be your best. Don’t think about anything else other than performing to your highest level, and ask for what you want. I think that’s excellent.

Excellent advice. Yep. They can only.

They can only say no. But in your experience, you haven’t even heard that. Really.

It’s more that you’ve shown initiative. Right. So maybe it’s not this time, but that they’re watching you now.

Yeah, exactly. And you know what? Sometimes it does take time to get to where you want. Or even it’s.

Sometimes it takes changing companies. So I’ve experienced where, you know, I’m doing the best that I can. I know I’m performing Well, but I’m just not getting where it is that I need to go.

And that’s okay, because sometimes the environment you’re in, male or female, it’s. It’s not going to get you where you need to go. And recognizing that is also the other side.

It’s like, okay, let me find somebody that’s going to find. See my value and go there. So, yeah, I think that’s a really interesting point.

And actually, I find that in the newer generations, like, they’re so much more okay with jumping ship than like, my generation was. You know, like, we were told we were raised by. I was raised by parents that stayed in a company for retirement until retirement, 40 years, you know, and you were loyal to that company, et cetera, et cetera.

And for me, I found that I actually gave myself advantages by hopping by, you know, lateral. Is it called lateral jumping the corporate field? You know, and it comes from asking those questions, asking to be a part of the table and maybe not getting the correct answer or not getting a reason why you can’t be at that table and then realizing that that’s not the place for you. Yep.

Yeah, exactly. And I mean, I don’t. I don’t think it’s good to, you know, jump ship every year or so, because then that starts looking questionable.

Right. But like you said, you know, you put the time in, you put the effort in, you work hard, and if you’re not seeing things change, then maybe that’s not the place for you, and that’s okay. Yeah.

So, looking ahead, what are your career goals and. And how do you plan to achieve them? Good question. I really like development.

I want to stay in this industry. I’d like to move up to be, you know, on the executive side and, you know, be the decision maker. And I’d really like to get more involved on sourcing deals.

So it’s pretty exciting finding a land and then looking at the financing behind it and how you make deals work. So I’d like to get a little bit more experience there and move up there as far as how I’m going to go about that. Basically, you know, what we’ve been talking about throughout the episode, letting them know that that’s something that I’m interested in and seeing.

Seeing how things progress. The advantages of a small office is that you get a lot of FaceTime. So we’ll see how that goes.

But so far, so good. I’m about to wrap up my project in Sacramento at the end of this year, and then my New Mexico one in early next year. So we’ll see what’s next.

I’m excited for you. I mean, I can already tell from this episode that I would want you to be my manager. Oh, thank you.

That’s. I. I appreciate that. That’s awesome.

Sincerely. I mean, you sound like you’re very organized and aware. You know, I think that there needs to be an emotional intelligence, which I think that female leaders really are.

Give better maybe than. I mean, not to put genders against each other, but it is an advantage of being a female, naturally, that I think that we have a lot of emotional intelligence. And the tactics that you’re using to manage both your bosses and your consultants, that drives.

From being emotionally intelligent. Right. Like, you’re.

You’re able to read the room. Yeah, definitely. That’s.

That’s super helpful. And I think that’s what makes certain people better leaders than other others is. Is that emotional intelligence and being able to see who’s on your team and utilize their strengths in the different ways.

Yeah, I love it. So how can people get ahold of you if they. I mean, is this something that.

If they wanted to get into some kind of development area or. Oh, yeah. I would love to chat with anybody who’s interested in development.

They can find me on LinkedIn. That’s the easiest way to get a hold of me. Yeah.

Anybody who’s thinking about getting into this industry, be happy to chat. Well, thank you so much for coming. This was a fun conversation.

Thanks for having me. Yeah. All right.

Thank you, Sam.